2022-12-29 - Interview Dr. David Sinclair - Moonshots with Peter Diamandis - Age Reversal Breakthroughs, FDA Approval, and Living Forever

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• Length: 25:18
• Interviewee: Dr. David Sinclair

Transcript

Intro

0:00	yeah we are kicking the can down the
0:01	road but that's the point you know life
0:04	is wonderful and the more times we kick
0:06	the can down the road the more life and
0:09	wonder we have and so yeah that's what
0:11	it is I don't think that we're going to
0:13	be able to Kick the Can down the road if
0:16	for in an infinite number of years based
0:18	on technology that I can foresee In Our
0:21	Lifetime now I could be wrong because I
0:23	didn't foresee reprogramming uh as
0:26	effective as it has become an age
0:28	reversal so I'd never say never but
0:31	given my viewpoint right now I think
0:33	that 150 is achievable in many of our
0:36	lifespans but not immortality
0:39	and a massive transformative purpose is
0:42	what you're telling the world it's like
0:44	this is who I am this is what I'm gonna
0:46	do this is the dent I'm gonna make in
0:48	the universe
0:52	hey everybody welcome back to another
0:54	episode of mindsets and moonshots uh my
0:56	name is Nick I'm Peter's producer and we
0:58	have today here Peter and David hey guys
1:00	how are you hey Nick hey Nick cool so uh
1:03	we have fielded hundreds of phenomenal
1:06	questions over the course of the past
1:08	day from both David and David and
1:10	Peter's Twitter and I'm going to be the
1:13	lucky one uh Fielding through them and
1:14	picking and popping so let's start off
1:16	with some fun ones

Why Hasn't David Been On The Podcast Scene?

1:18	uh David I'm going to direct this one at
1:20	you fans want to know why has David not
1:23	had a podcast since February ah
1:27	well I'm writing my second book
1:30	I'm editing a paper that's going to come
1:33	out in
1:34	a big Journal that's going to be high
1:36	impact uh and I'm working on making my
1:40	podcast even better uh better produced
1:43	and so trust me it's coming I know that
1:48	there's a lot of demand for it and I
1:49	thank everyone for their patience cool
1:51	that's a fair answer
1:53	um all right let's dive into one that we

Where Are The Breakthroughs & When Are They Coming?

1:55	had a bunch of and I'll read it verbatim
1:59	this one is from Tony and Megan they
2:01	asked and I'm going to ask it to both
2:03	Peter and David
2:05	um why is it taking so freaking long to
2:08	have meaningful longevity therapies come
2:11	to Market I feel like we're not making
2:12	any meaningful Headway and we're stuck
2:14	taking supplements that give us five to
2:16	ten years if we're lucky where are the
2:18	breakthroughs when are they coming well
2:21	some of them are already here uh in my
2:24	view we've got some drugs already
2:26	metformin rapamycin that I strongly
2:29	believe can slow down aspects of Aging
2:32	so we already have some technologies not
2:35	evenly distributed it's not available to
2:37	everybody because most doctors are
2:39	unaware or unwilling to prescribe these
2:41	medicines to people who are healthy
2:44	uh but the data looks good now what
2:47	about the new medicines that are in
2:49	development well one of them that I'm
2:51	developing actually a few of them at
2:54	Metro biotech are spin out from my lab
2:56	from 10 years ago is pretty Advanced
2:58	we're actually in in phase two studies
3:00	we've had some positive data we're
3:02	looking to publish now we've written up
3:03	the manuscript and so that is a a study
3:08	and a company that looks at NAD boosters
3:10	for pharmaceutical use for diseases of
3:13	aging and that one if all that all goes
3:16	well it's uh probably two to three years
3:19	away so that's uh that's the good news
3:21	also reprogramming of the eye to cure
3:23	blindness which we did in mice a couple
3:25	years ago we're in non-human primates
3:27	and that that could go into humans as
3:30	soon as next year
3:32	now the the question is why uh isn't it
3:34	quicker well it's because drugs are hard
3:37	super hard you know what industry can
3:40	spend 400 500 million dollars and still
3:42	fail not that many and that's what it's
3:44	like to develop drugs and there's a lot
3:46	of safety and efficacy that needs to go
3:49	into these products thanks to the
3:51	oversight of the FDA here in the US and
3:53	other countries under different auspices
3:55	and it's there's a high high hurdle
3:58	rightly so we don't want something that
4:00	doesn't work or can harm people getting
4:03	on the market but to get over that
4:04	hurdle takes time and a lot of money
4:06	that's a fair answer Peter I'd love your

Peter's Thoughts On The FDA & The Future Of Medicine

4:08	take and in your take I want to include
4:10	your opposing somewhat opposing thoughts
4:12	to David on how you feel about the fdm
4:15	bureaucracy well so listen the the
4:18	reality is what we're talking about is a
4:22	radical departure from traditional
4:24	medicine medicine has been you know you
4:27	go to we've all come to expect we go to
4:29	our doctor and we go for are once a year
4:33	physical if we're lucky and that doctor
4:35	will listen to your lungs your heart and
4:37	and it's expected you know old age is
4:41	something we come to expect and we don't
4:44	fight against it uh we expect it we try
4:46	and do a gentle Landing if you would uh
4:49	and the FDA is an organization built
4:52	around safety what I mean by that is
4:55	they will value the lives lost if they
5:00	approve a drug that kills people those
5:01	lives are much more valuable than all
5:04	the lives lost by not approving a drug
5:07	it's just the way it is today and so
5:11	until the science is Rock Solid
5:16	they're going to be hesitant to approve
5:18	something and it takes a huge amount of
5:20	capital Investments billions of dollars
5:22	and sometimes Decades of time
5:26	um
5:27	the reality is you know even this the
5:30	world of stem cells um stem cells are we
5:33	know that we exhaust our stem cell
5:34	population uh that when we're young we
5:37	have uh you know a hundred x a thousand
5:40	X number of stem cells in different uh
5:42	different pockets of the body from uh
5:44	from fat to muscle to neural stem cells
5:48	and they reduce and we can supplement
5:50	our stem cells
5:52	um and but today you have to go outside
5:54	the United States to do that because the
5:56	science isn't there to have proven its
5:59	efficacy and its safety yet and we're
6:01	going to get there but until it's you
6:05	know rock solid
6:07	um you're going to a different
6:10	jurisdiction to get those treatments it
6:12	takes time to be available what we saw I
6:15	remember I was in Richard Mulligan's lab
6:18	uh David back in in the 80s doing uh
6:21	early gene therapy work and gene therapy
6:25	was
6:27	was imagined back then to be an
6:30	extraordinary technology and it was but
6:32	when it was first applied to the first
6:34	patients it caused the death of a number
6:36	of children and it stopped the entire
6:39	field for decades
6:41	um so
6:42	people are cautious about taking
6:44	shortcuts David do you have any push

David Sinclair's Experience Dealing With The FDA

6:46	back there I mean you're interfacing
6:48	with the FD over the years is probably
6:51	more than most people will ever
6:53	experience in a lifetime given your
6:54	career are you friends and yeah I have
6:57	to find a way to word this so excuse the
6:59	way I'm wording it are you friends of
7:01	the FDA in the sense that you're happy
7:03	with how they work does it frustrate you
7:04	at times that they move slow uh are you
7:08	in alignment with Peter that there is a
7:11	increase or there should be an increase
7:13	in speed of how they approve things
7:15	coming up or what's your take well the
7:17	FDA was surprisingly receptive
7:20	um
7:22	to the idea that aging can be treated
7:24	with a medicine and they are still of
7:27	the opinion that if we can show that
7:29	aging is
7:31	uh slowable with with a treatment that
7:33	they would
7:34	strongly consider approving that
7:37	medicine for the treatment of aging and
7:40	I didn't realize that that was true but
7:42	what the individuals at the FDA the
7:44	human beings in this bureaucracy as it
7:47	is
7:48	um have to deal with a big organization
7:51	with lots of rules and procedures and
7:54	those rules dictate how quickly we can
7:57	move and their mandate is to protect the
8:00	public so that there's not as much
8:02	incentive to to get a drug on the market
8:05	as there is to protect them and that
8:07	does lead to this being rather a slow
8:10	process that's for sure now what I would
8:13	love is if there was increased public
8:14	opinion uh pressure
8:18	from all places from politicians from
8:21	Grassroots to increase the dialogue and
8:26	help the FDA find a way to make it
8:29	easier for us to get a drug on the
8:31	market that's based on Aging research
8:33	right now we cannot make a drug for
8:36	aging because aging isn't a medical
8:38	condition
8:39	if it were we'd have a lot more
8:41	investment and a lot more successful you
8:45	know David one thing I hope for in the
8:47	future is a right to try uh strategy
8:51	right in other words I always call it an
8:53	accredited patient program where if as a
8:57	patient as a subject I get permission
9:00	from my physician my husband my wife my
9:03	kids whatever that I want to try a
9:06	treatment that isn't FDA approved but
9:08	you know I've got this disease called
9:10	Aging and I want to try this even if
9:13	it's you know to be a subject
9:15	I think Reinventing How We Do now we do
9:19	have investigation new drugs and we do
9:21	have you know experimental protocols and
9:23	so forth but how do we we make it
9:26	um
9:27	more agile in that regard Peter I love
9:30	that idea that that you wouldn't be able
9:32	to just go online and order up if it's
9:35	an experimental drug right that's that's
9:37	too free because there could be
9:38	accidents
9:40	um and there's a maybe abuse of that
9:41	system for monetary reasons that said if
9:44	there were a certification whether it's
9:47	an MD or something an MD can can get
9:49	that would allow the use of experimental
9:52	drugs right now that is possible but
9:55	it's not widely used it's generally on
9:58	um if it was more widely available if
10:01	you have a terminal disease or something
10:02	that
10:04	um
10:05	doesn't have any current cure
10:07	why not try something that is at least
10:09	already shown in Phase One to be safe
10:11	yes exactly in fact uh David feigenbaum
10:15	I don't know if you know David he he's
10:16	uh uh he cured his or I didn't cure he's
10:21	treating his uh castleman's disease
10:22	using rapamycin and so they're you know
10:26	the numbers are interesting right there
10:27	are 3 000 FDA approved drugs and there
10:30	are 12 000 diseases and his work right
10:33	now is saying can we can we fund looking
10:37	at which of those 3 000 drugs might have
10:40	a dual use for the 9 000 diseases that
10:43	don't have a treatment right they've
10:45	already they're already on the market
10:46	they're already in production they're
10:47	already shown to be safe in in humans
10:51	um and so it's a rather than developing
10:54	a brand new treatment so his his efforts
10:57	called uh called uh every cure and it's
11:01	uh he just announced it at the Clinton
11:03	Global initiative a couple of weeks back
11:05	David and Peter what is your purse

When Is The Right Time To Show Your Findings?

11:07	personal preference to when you feel
11:09	comfortable enough to try something
11:11	David you probably have a lot of
11:12	exposure to this because you're
11:13	constantly testing things in the lab
11:15	when do you say okay you know what I'm
11:17	good enough to uh put myself on the line
11:20	here and Peter likewise I'd like to know
11:22	for you
11:23	uh I consider myself a chief guinea pig
11:26	for a lot of uh of what's out there uh
11:30	Tony Robbins who's a deer mutual friend
11:33	of both of ours and I think about that
11:35	all the time it's like huh interesting
11:38	so
11:39	um listen if it's
11:41	I'm probably not likely to be the first
11:45	human ever to take something but I will
11:47	be an early user of it let's leave it at
11:50	that yeah I'm the same I I I'm an
11:53	experimenter I'm assigned to stylist I
11:56	feel that if I'm going to be talking
11:58	about something I need to have
12:00	experienced it myself I would really
12:02	never talk about something unless I I
12:05	tried something and so I never recommend
12:08	anything I'm not even an MD I'm a PhD
12:10	but I will talk about my own experience
12:13	um in a way that will allow others to
12:15	think about it themselves
12:17	Sam yeah I think I think it's important
12:20	I think it's important uh as we're as we
12:24	are
12:25	speaking about this field and what's
12:28	becoming available uh to to explain
12:31	either that something I do do or the
12:34	reason I haven't right and actually a
12:37	New York Times article was written about
12:39	my lab and me and they said uh
12:43	um I think it was posed to the effect of
12:46	well David you're conflicted because
12:49	you're studying this molecule in the lab
12:51	and you're taking it you can be biased
12:54	and if there's something bad you'll hide
12:56	it and I'm I'm thinking to myself I want
12:59	to be the first person in the world to
13:00	know that there's something wrong with
13:02	this molecule because my father's taking
13:04	it I'm taking it and I will tell the
13:06	whole world to stop taking it if I see
13:07	something and I want to be that person
13:09	to find it ASAP so it's actually it's
13:12	it's flipped is that I'm looking for
13:14	problems with these treatments because
13:17	if I'm taking them or I tried them I
13:19	need to know if there's a problem and so
13:21	you know you can trust me that you'll
13:24	hear from me first if there is something
13:25	that's negative yeah uh I'm Ahmet
13:28	Foreman I've just started rapamycin five
13:31	milligrams my own body weight and I did
13:33	a lot of research and talked to a lot of
13:35	Physicians about it and felt that the
13:37	you know it's always a risk reward
13:39	situation and I just felt like at this
13:43	point the reward side was higher than
13:46	the risk well for sure and the older you
13:48	get
13:49	um the more so but we we tend to
13:51	underestimate the risk of Aging we don't
13:53	think about it as much as we should
13:54	aging is really really risky in fact we
14:00	it's no it's known to cause death yes it
14:03	runs in my family
14:06	David do you mind if I cut a night build

Are We Doing It? Are We Going To Live Forever?

14:09	off of that for a moment so one of the
14:11	questions that came in was uh let me
14:13	find it here
14:15	um it was uh are we effectively I'm
14:20	gonna shorten what they said but are we
14:22	effectively just kicking the can of
14:24	dying here and are we just prolonging it
14:26	say 120 500 years whatever the case may
14:29	be
14:31	um or or is the proposition that we're
14:32	going to live forever and
14:35	um what's your take and Peter what's
14:36	your take uh all right uh yeah we are
14:39	kicking the can down the road but that's
14:40	the point
14:41	life is wonderful and the more times we
14:44	keep the can down the road the more life
14:46	and wonder we have and so yeah that's
14:50	what it is I don't think that we're
14:52	going to be able to Kick the Can down
14:54	the road for in an infinite number of
14:56	years based on technology that I can
14:59	foresee In Our Lifetime now I could be
15:02	wrong because I didn't foresee
15:03	reprogramming uh as effective as it has
15:06	become an age reversal so Never Say
15:08	Never but given my viewpoint right now I
15:12	think that 150 is achievable in many of
15:15	our life spans but not immortality Peter
15:18	yeah so it most definitely kicking the
15:20	can down the road the analogy is and I I
15:22	was you know on a vacation with my
15:24	family and we're having so much a fun
15:26	time it's like let's stay an extra week
15:28	you know if if you're enjoying life uh
15:31	you know adding decades to it but let's
15:34	not forget we're in the steepest part of
15:36	the exponential curve uh you know in
15:39	terms of what's coming in Ai and
15:42	Robotics and Quantum computation that's
15:44	that's just on the edge of uh of our
15:47	capabilities so yeah I may not want this
15:51	Mortal body uh five you know not five
15:55	you know 50 years from now I may want a
15:58	upgraded body but the idea of being able
16:01	to see my grandchildren my
16:03	great-grandchildren to go to the moon go
16:05	to Mars to see what happens next
16:09	um is extraordinary I don't you know Ray
16:13	Carswell talks about the singularity
16:15	right the point at which the speed of
16:17	technological change is so rapid that
16:20	we're unable to predict what's next and
16:23	that number is Circa you know the early
16:26	2040s let's not forget that's 20 years
16:28	from now I mean it's not like a hundred
16:31	years it's 20 years from now so uh part
16:33	of what we're talking about is
16:35	intercepting the technologies that will
16:38	give us longevity escape velocity but
16:40	beyond that the technologies that will
16:42	allow us
16:43	to connect our minds to the cloud maybe
16:46	it's uploading ourselves
16:49	um I'm not a huge fan of freezing myself
16:51	are you David
16:53	um yeah so I I definitely want to get
16:56	immortality or at least extreme
16:58	longevity is that a reason like an
17:01	awesome powers freezing yourself thing
17:02	yeah I know sure there's a lot of people
17:04	here yeah cryonics is the technology
17:07	it's the notion that if I freeze myself
17:09	and I don't rupture the cells and there
17:11	are ways to do that that hopefully
17:13	technology super advanced technology you
17:16	know a hundred or a thousand years from
17:18	now will be able to bring me back and
17:19	restate my neural structures and my
17:21	memories and so forth but that's that's
17:24	a subject for another conversation hold
17:25	on I have a question on this David uh
17:27	have you ever visited or Peter VA has
17:30	ever this is a very interesting question
17:31	visited a facility where people are
17:34	Frozen I mean is this a I I I thought
17:36	that this was all hearsay uh I have not
17:39	uh either have I but there are a number
17:41	of them and people I mean the first
17:45	person I just saw an article about this
17:46	the first person Frozen
17:48	uh was about 50 years ago and there are
17:52	companies today that you'll wear a
17:55	bracelet and
17:57	um at the moment of death uh when your
18:00	body when your your brain function
18:02	ceases they will come in and they'll
18:05	pull out your blood replace it with
18:07	effectively an antifreeze and uh and
18:09	freeze you and you can have the choice
18:11	of freezing your entire body or coughing
18:14	off your head and just freezing your
18:15	head because it takes less energy to do
18:17	that it may actually work
18:20	um I didn't think it would but actually
18:22	given that we can now reset the age of
18:24	cells I can imagine that you can quickly
18:27	unfreeze a person and get their cells to
18:30	begin the Rejuvenation process that we
18:33	seem to be able to control now
18:34	and uh yeah so I think it I wouldn't do
18:37	it myself at least currently uh but I
18:40	think that it's not as crazy as it once
18:42	seemed
18:44	um but I I would rather stay alive by
18:46	being alive and I think the Technologies
18:49	to do that are increasingly here it's
18:52	it's a it's a fun subject to think about
18:54	but I'd rather put my energy and focus
18:56	into extending the healthy human
18:58	lifespan you know what Peter and I are
19:00	very much into democratizing
19:02	Technologies and and cryonics is not
19:05	going to be for everybody it's a very
19:07	small few people number of people that
19:09	can afford this so that's again not a
19:11	good reason to focus our energies on
19:13	those kind of Technologies I have a lot

How Are David & Peter Going To Reduce Aging?

19:16	of deep appreciation for that answer I
19:18	have a great one I want to end it with
19:19	but uh Peter this one was directed at
19:22	you uh somebody wanted an update on I
19:24	didn't even know this was public yet the
19:26	age reversal prize and I'm not sure if
19:28	David you know about the age reversal
19:30	experts here has but obviously and let
19:32	me just cue this up for everybody
19:33	listening David efforts are
19:35	substantially documented realized and
19:38	and very public right now he he's in my
19:40	opinion the leading World expert on on
19:42	anti-aging at the moment and um you know
19:45	Peter I think that you're now going to
19:46	actively join this fight through one of
19:48	your efforts
19:49	um do you want to share how uh yeah sure
19:51	and David is is very much involved uh he
19:55	and George Church are uh are my
19:58	co-conspirators uh if I would our
20:00	scientific co-chairs of a 101 million
20:04	dollar age reversal X prize uh and the
20:08	question we've asked I mean we've been
20:10	talking about the idea is could we do
20:12	and it's not launched yet to be very
20:14	clear we're majority funded uh David and
20:17	I have been having a conversation every
20:19	uh every few days on the rule sets and
20:22	getting them really honed in I hope to
20:25	launch an early part of 2023 but uh we
20:29	talked early on about a longevity prize
20:31	but the problem with the longevity prize
20:33	like can you add 30 healthy years and
20:34	person's life which we will is you have
20:38	to wait 30 years to see if you have a
20:39	winner but can you in fact reverse aging
20:43	in someone in this case the rules we're
20:45	thinking about is can you give a
20:48	therapeutic that lasts for less than a
20:50	year but reverses biological age by 20
20:55	years or more David do you want to add
20:58	your thoughts there yeah it the goal is
21:01	to inspire companies and Labs
21:05	individuals to work on methods to safely
21:07	reverse aging in multiple tissues and
21:10	organs to rejuvenate the body and make
21:12	it function better and uh and this kind
21:15	of prize money will be a huge incentive
21:18	um I think it's gonna have a big impact
21:19	on on the field and uh and drive
21:23	innovation in the same way other X
21:25	prizes have done so and so I'm super
21:27	happy to be involved we're looking at
21:29	you know we're trying to decide where
21:31	what the focus will be I I you know Dave
21:34	and I are honing in on on cognition on
21:37	muscle on skin on immune system I mean
21:40	these are the things that as you age you
21:42	want to look good you want to move well
21:43	you want to think clearly you want to
21:45	have able to have a good immunity in a
21:47	world of covet and influenza
21:50	um
21:51	but you know this is about getting the
21:54	smartest people on the planet to focus
21:55	on one of the biggest problems one of
21:58	the biggest Grand challenges on the
22:00	planet which is extending the healthy
22:02	Health span and David on a previous
22:05	episode you mentioned the economic
22:08	impact for adding one healthy year on a
22:11	person's life what was that number again
22:12	it was staggering well for the us alone
22:14	it's 86 trillion dollars in the long run
22:17	of doing that so so David uh where

Where Can You Get To Know More About David Sinclair?

22:20	should people go to find you
22:22	well I'm I'm active on social media
22:25	um so find updated news there
22:28	uh my podcast is still available and I'm
22:31	working on season two uh and that's on
22:34	all podcast Outlets uh my book I think a
22:38	lot of people got inspired by
22:40	um and I was inspired by yours too Peter
22:43	my book is called lifespan why we age
22:45	and why we don't have to and I didn't
22:48	get to talk a lot about what I do on my
22:50	in my daily life which supplements and
22:52	that kind of thing but that is outlined
22:54	in large part on page 304 of lifespan so
22:59	check that out that's the cheat sheet
23:01	but please do read the science as well
23:02	and all of the future that's coming so
23:06	that's where to find me um that is a
23:08	good spot other than that
23:10	um I'll be I'm working on it on a TV
23:13	show that uh I'll let you know how that
23:17	goes
23:18	show people the insides of our bodies
23:21	and how we work and how to improve our
23:23	bodies in our daily lives in a way that
23:26	no show has ever done before so stay
23:29	tuned for that too Nick do you have a
23:30	last question for us I do and I'm going

The Human Side Of David Sinclair.

23:32	to direct it at David and then Peter
23:33	will have you recorded on this too David
23:36	the the question that came in I thought
23:38	it was novel is uh are you happy if so
23:40	why and was there ever a point in your
23:42	life in which you weren't and what did
23:44	you do because uh I like this because a
23:47	lot of your research is pending on this
23:49	fulcrum of whether or not people can
23:51	resolve that okay uh am I always happy
23:54	uh no uh most days I'm happy because I'm
23:58	doing something that I dreamed of doing
24:00	and I'm fulfilled but I have down days I
24:03	have days where I get attacked by Lodge
24:07	farmer by colleagues I've learned to
24:10	have a thicker skin so I don't get
24:12	full-blown depression but it's still
24:14	it's still upsetting but I've learned to
24:16	trust in myself and be resilient and get
24:19	up um I find that having teenage kids is
24:22	the most challenging thing in life and I
24:25	have three of those and I'm still trying
24:27	to be a great dad uh so I'm a struggling
24:30	vegan and a struggling teenage guy
24:33	so that that's who I am outside of
24:36	research David thanks for being on the

25:19 Outro

24:38	show
24:39	um let us know what you think great
24:40	review and give us a follow find David
24:42	across all socials he's very active and
24:45	I think
24:46	um we're just really blessed to have had
24:47	him Peter do you want to share any
24:49	closing notes David it's a truly a
24:52	pleasure to call you a friend a
24:53	co-collaborator co-conspirator on this
24:56	journey we're ahead of uh and have a
24:59	beautiful day pal yeah you too it's
25:01	great to have you as a co-pilot on on
25:03	this final frontier of biology
25:05	appreciate it yeah appreciate you too
25:07	take care
25:10	[Music]