2022-12-29 - Interview Dr. David Sinclair - Moonshots with Peter Diamandis - Age Reversal Breakthroughs, FDA Approval, and Living Forever

    From Longevity Wiki



    0:00 yeah we are kicking the can down the
    0:01 road but that's the point you know life
    0:04 is wonderful and the more times we kick
    0:06 the can down the road the more life and
    0:09 wonder we have and so yeah that's what
    0:11 it is I don't think that we're going to
    0:13 be able to Kick the Can down the road if
    0:16 for in an infinite number of years based
    0:18 on technology that I can foresee In Our
    0:21 Lifetime now I could be wrong because I
    0:23 didn't foresee reprogramming uh as
    0:26 effective as it has become an age
    0:28 reversal so I'd never say never but
    0:31 given my viewpoint right now I think
    0:33 that 150 is achievable in many of our
    0:36 lifespans but not immortality
    0:39 and a massive transformative purpose is
    0:42 what you're telling the world it's like
    0:44 this is who I am this is what I'm gonna
    0:46 do this is the dent I'm gonna make in
    0:48 the universe
    0:52 hey everybody welcome back to another
    0:54 episode of mindsets and moonshots uh my
    0:56 name is Nick I'm Peter's producer and we
    0:58 have today here Peter and David hey guys
    1:00 how are you hey Nick hey Nick cool so uh
    1:03 we have fielded hundreds of phenomenal
    1:06 questions over the course of the past
    1:08 day from both David and David and
    1:10 Peter's Twitter and I'm going to be the
    1:13 lucky one uh Fielding through them and
    1:14 picking and popping so let's start off
    1:16 with some fun ones

    Why Hasn't David Been On The Podcast Scene?

    1:18 uh David I'm going to direct this one at
    1:20 you fans want to know why has David not
    1:23 had a podcast since February ah
    1:27 well I'm writing my second book
    1:30 I'm editing a paper that's going to come
    1:33 out in
    1:34 a big Journal that's going to be high
    1:36 impact uh and I'm working on making my
    1:40 podcast even better uh better produced
    1:43 and so trust me it's coming I know that
    1:48 there's a lot of demand for it and I
    1:49 thank everyone for their patience cool
    1:51 that's a fair answer
    1:53 um all right let's dive into one that we

    Where Are The Breakthroughs & When Are They Coming?

    1:55 had a bunch of and I'll read it verbatim
    1:59 this one is from Tony and Megan they
    2:01 asked and I'm going to ask it to both
    2:03 Peter and David
    2:05 um why is it taking so freaking long to
    2:08 have meaningful longevity therapies come
    2:11 to Market I feel like we're not making
    2:12 any meaningful Headway and we're stuck
    2:14 taking supplements that give us five to
    2:16 ten years if we're lucky where are the
    2:18 breakthroughs when are they coming well
    2:21 some of them are already here uh in my
    2:24 view we've got some drugs already
    2:26 metformin rapamycin that I strongly
    2:29 believe can slow down aspects of Aging
    2:32 so we already have some technologies not
    2:35 evenly distributed it's not available to
    2:37 everybody because most doctors are
    2:39 unaware or unwilling to prescribe these
    2:41 medicines to people who are healthy
    2:44 uh but the data looks good now what
    2:47 about the new medicines that are in
    2:49 development well one of them that I'm
    2:51 developing actually a few of them at
    2:54 Metro biotech are spin out from my lab
    2:56 from 10 years ago is pretty Advanced
    2:58 we're actually in in phase two studies
    3:00 we've had some positive data we're
    3:02 looking to publish now we've written up
    3:03 the manuscript and so that is a a study
    3:08 and a company that looks at NAD boosters
    3:10 for pharmaceutical use for diseases of
    3:13 aging and that one if all that all goes
    3:16 well it's uh probably two to three years
    3:19 away so that's uh that's the good news
    3:21 also reprogramming of the eye to cure
    3:23 blindness which we did in mice a couple
    3:25 years ago we're in non-human primates
    3:27 and that that could go into humans as
    3:30 soon as next year
    3:32 now the the question is why uh isn't it
    3:34 quicker well it's because drugs are hard
    3:37 super hard you know what industry can
    3:40 spend 400 500 million dollars and still
    3:42 fail not that many and that's what it's
    3:44 like to develop drugs and there's a lot
    3:46 of safety and efficacy that needs to go
    3:49 into these products thanks to the
    3:51 oversight of the FDA here in the US and
    3:53 other countries under different auspices
    3:55 and it's there's a high high hurdle
    3:58 rightly so we don't want something that
    4:00 doesn't work or can harm people getting
    4:03 on the market but to get over that
    4:04 hurdle takes time and a lot of money
    4:06 that's a fair answer Peter I'd love your

    Peter's Thoughts On The FDA & The Future Of Medicine

    4:08 take and in your take I want to include
    4:10 your opposing somewhat opposing thoughts
    4:12 to David on how you feel about the fdm
    4:15 bureaucracy well so listen the the
    4:18 reality is what we're talking about is a
    4:22 radical departure from traditional
    4:24 medicine medicine has been you know you
    4:27 go to we've all come to expect we go to
    4:29 our doctor and we go for are once a year
    4:33 physical if we're lucky and that doctor
    4:35 will listen to your lungs your heart and
    4:37 and it's expected you know old age is
    4:41 something we come to expect and we don't
    4:44 fight against it uh we expect it we try
    4:46 and do a gentle Landing if you would uh
    4:49 and the FDA is an organization built
    4:52 around safety what I mean by that is
    4:55 they will value the lives lost if they
    5:00 approve a drug that kills people those
    5:01 lives are much more valuable than all
    5:04 the lives lost by not approving a drug
    5:07 it's just the way it is today and so
    5:11 until the science is Rock Solid
    5:16 they're going to be hesitant to approve
    5:18 something and it takes a huge amount of
    5:20 capital Investments billions of dollars
    5:22 and sometimes Decades of time
    5:26 um
    5:27 the reality is you know even this the
    5:30 world of stem cells um stem cells are we
    5:33 know that we exhaust our stem cell
    5:34 population uh that when we're young we
    5:37 have uh you know a hundred x a thousand
    5:40 X number of stem cells in different uh
    5:42 different pockets of the body from uh
    5:44 from fat to muscle to neural stem cells
    5:48 and they reduce and we can supplement
    5:50 our stem cells
    5:52 um and but today you have to go outside
    5:54 the United States to do that because the
    5:56 science isn't there to have proven its
    5:59 efficacy and its safety yet and we're
    6:01 going to get there but until it's you
    6:05 know rock solid
    6:07 um you're going to a different
    6:10 jurisdiction to get those treatments it
    6:12 takes time to be available what we saw I
    6:15 remember I was in Richard Mulligan's lab
    6:18 uh David back in in the 80s doing uh
    6:21 early gene therapy work and gene therapy
    6:25 was
    6:27 was imagined back then to be an
    6:30 extraordinary technology and it was but
    6:32 when it was first applied to the first
    6:34 patients it caused the death of a number
    6:36 of children and it stopped the entire
    6:39 field for decades
    6:41 um so
    6:42 people are cautious about taking
    6:44 shortcuts David do you have any push

    David Sinclair's Experience Dealing With The FDA

    6:46 back there I mean you're interfacing
    6:48 with the FD over the years is probably
    6:51 more than most people will ever
    6:53 experience in a lifetime given your
    6:54 career are you friends and yeah I have
    6:57 to find a way to word this so excuse the
    6:59 way I'm wording it are you friends of
    7:01 the FDA in the sense that you're happy
    7:03 with how they work does it frustrate you
    7:04 at times that they move slow uh are you
    7:08 in alignment with Peter that there is a
    7:11 increase or there should be an increase
    7:13 in speed of how they approve things
    7:15 coming up or what's your take well the
    7:17 FDA was surprisingly receptive
    7:20 um
    7:22 to the idea that aging can be treated
    7:24 with a medicine and they are still of
    7:27 the opinion that if we can show that
    7:29 aging is
    7:31 uh slowable with with a treatment that
    7:33 they would
    7:34 strongly consider approving that
    7:37 medicine for the treatment of aging and
    7:40 I didn't realize that that was true but
    7:42 what the individuals at the FDA the
    7:44 human beings in this bureaucracy as it
    7:47 is
    7:48 um have to deal with a big organization
    7:51 with lots of rules and procedures and
    7:54 those rules dictate how quickly we can
    7:57 move and their mandate is to protect the
    8:00 public so that there's not as much
    8:02 incentive to to get a drug on the market
    8:05 as there is to protect them and that
    8:07 does lead to this being rather a slow
    8:10 process that's for sure now what I would
    8:13 love is if there was increased public
    8:14 opinion uh pressure
    8:18 from all places from politicians from
    8:21 Grassroots to increase the dialogue and
    8:26 help the FDA find a way to make it
    8:29 easier for us to get a drug on the
    8:31 market that's based on Aging research
    8:33 right now we cannot make a drug for
    8:36 aging because aging isn't a medical
    8:38 condition
    8:39 if it were we'd have a lot more
    8:41 investment and a lot more successful you
    8:45 know David one thing I hope for in the
    8:47 future is a right to try uh strategy
    8:51 right in other words I always call it an
    8:53 accredited patient program where if as a
    8:57 patient as a subject I get permission
    9:00 from my physician my husband my wife my
    9:03 kids whatever that I want to try a
    9:06 treatment that isn't FDA approved but
    9:08 you know I've got this disease called
    9:10 Aging and I want to try this even if
    9:13 it's you know to be a subject
    9:15 I think Reinventing How We Do now we do
    9:19 have investigation new drugs and we do
    9:21 have you know experimental protocols and
    9:23 so forth but how do we we make it
    9:26 um
    9:27 more agile in that regard Peter I love
    9:30 that idea that that you wouldn't be able
    9:32 to just go online and order up if it's
    9:35 an experimental drug right that's that's
    9:37 too free because there could be
    9:38 accidents
    9:40 um and there's a maybe abuse of that
    9:41 system for monetary reasons that said if
    9:44 there were a certification whether it's
    9:47 an MD or something an MD can can get
    9:49 that would allow the use of experimental
    9:52 drugs right now that is possible but
    9:55 it's not widely used it's generally on
    9:58 um if it was more widely available if
    10:01 you have a terminal disease or something
    10:02 that
    10:04 um
    10:05 doesn't have any current cure
    10:07 why not try something that is at least
    10:09 already shown in Phase One to be safe
    10:11 yes exactly in fact uh David feigenbaum
    10:15 I don't know if you know David he he's
    10:16 uh uh he cured his or I didn't cure he's
    10:21 treating his uh castleman's disease
    10:22 using rapamycin and so they're you know
    10:26 the numbers are interesting right there
    10:27 are 3 000 FDA approved drugs and there
    10:30 are 12 000 diseases and his work right
    10:33 now is saying can we can we fund looking
    10:37 at which of those 3 000 drugs might have
    10:40 a dual use for the 9 000 diseases that
    10:43 don't have a treatment right they've
    10:45 already they're already on the market
    10:46 they're already in production they're
    10:47 already shown to be safe in in humans
    10:51 um and so it's a rather than developing
    10:54 a brand new treatment so his his efforts
    10:57 called uh called uh every cure and it's
    11:01 uh he just announced it at the Clinton
    11:03 Global initiative a couple of weeks back
    11:05 David and Peter what is your purse

    When Is The Right Time To Show Your Findings?

    11:07 personal preference to when you feel
    11:09 comfortable enough to try something
    11:11 David you probably have a lot of
    11:12 exposure to this because you're
    11:13 constantly testing things in the lab
    11:15 when do you say okay you know what I'm
    11:17 good enough to uh put myself on the line
    11:20 here and Peter likewise I'd like to know
    11:22 for you
    11:23 uh I consider myself a chief guinea pig
    11:26 for a lot of uh of what's out there uh
    11:30 Tony Robbins who's a deer mutual friend
    11:33 of both of ours and I think about that
    11:35 all the time it's like huh interesting
    11:38 so
    11:39 um listen if it's
    11:41 I'm probably not likely to be the first
    11:45 human ever to take something but I will
    11:47 be an early user of it let's leave it at
    11:50 that yeah I'm the same I I I'm an
    11:53 experimenter I'm assigned to stylist I
    11:56 feel that if I'm going to be talking
    11:58 about something I need to have
    12:00 experienced it myself I would really
    12:02 never talk about something unless I I
    12:05 tried something and so I never recommend
    12:08 anything I'm not even an MD I'm a PhD
    12:10 but I will talk about my own experience
    12:13 um in a way that will allow others to
    12:15 think about it themselves
    12:17 Sam yeah I think I think it's important
    12:20 I think it's important uh as we're as we
    12:24 are
    12:25 speaking about this field and what's
    12:28 becoming available uh to to explain
    12:31 either that something I do do or the
    12:34 reason I haven't right and actually a
    12:37 New York Times article was written about
    12:39 my lab and me and they said uh
    12:43 um I think it was posed to the effect of
    12:46 well David you're conflicted because
    12:49 you're studying this molecule in the lab
    12:51 and you're taking it you can be biased
    12:54 and if there's something bad you'll hide
    12:56 it and I'm I'm thinking to myself I want
    12:59 to be the first person in the world to
    13:00 know that there's something wrong with
    13:02 this molecule because my father's taking
    13:04 it I'm taking it and I will tell the
    13:06 whole world to stop taking it if I see
    13:07 something and I want to be that person
    13:09 to find it ASAP so it's actually it's
    13:12 it's flipped is that I'm looking for
    13:14 problems with these treatments because
    13:17 if I'm taking them or I tried them I
    13:19 need to know if there's a problem and so
    13:21 you know you can trust me that you'll
    13:24 hear from me first if there is something
    13:25 that's negative yeah uh I'm Ahmet
    13:28 Foreman I've just started rapamycin five
    13:31 milligrams my own body weight and I did
    13:33 a lot of research and talked to a lot of
    13:35 Physicians about it and felt that the
    13:37 you know it's always a risk reward
    13:39 situation and I just felt like at this
    13:43 point the reward side was higher than
    13:46 the risk well for sure and the older you
    13:48 get
    13:49 um the more so but we we tend to
    13:51 underestimate the risk of Aging we don't
    13:53 think about it as much as we should
    13:54 aging is really really risky in fact we
    14:00 it's no it's known to cause death yes it
    14:03 runs in my family
    14:06 David do you mind if I cut a night build

    Are We Doing It? Are We Going To Live Forever?

    14:09 off of that for a moment so one of the
    14:11 questions that came in was uh let me
    14:13 find it here
    14:15 um it was uh are we effectively I'm
    14:20 gonna shorten what they said but are we
    14:22 effectively just kicking the can of
    14:24 dying here and are we just prolonging it
    14:26 say 120 500 years whatever the case may
    14:29 be
    14:31 um or or is the proposition that we're
    14:32 going to live forever and
    14:35 um what's your take and Peter what's
    14:36 your take uh all right uh yeah we are
    14:39 kicking the can down the road but that's
    14:40 the point
    14:41 life is wonderful and the more times we
    14:44 keep the can down the road the more life
    14:46 and wonder we have and so yeah that's
    14:50 what it is I don't think that we're
    14:52 going to be able to Kick the Can down
    14:54 the road for in an infinite number of
    14:56 years based on technology that I can
    14:59 foresee In Our Lifetime now I could be
    15:02 wrong because I didn't foresee
    15:03 reprogramming uh as effective as it has
    15:06 become an age reversal so Never Say
    15:08 Never but given my viewpoint right now I
    15:12 think that 150 is achievable in many of
    15:15 our life spans but not immortality Peter
    15:18 yeah so it most definitely kicking the
    15:20 can down the road the analogy is and I I
    15:22 was you know on a vacation with my
    15:24 family and we're having so much a fun
    15:26 time it's like let's stay an extra week
    15:28 you know if if you're enjoying life uh
    15:31 you know adding decades to it but let's
    15:34 not forget we're in the steepest part of
    15:36 the exponential curve uh you know in
    15:39 terms of what's coming in Ai and
    15:42 Robotics and Quantum computation that's
    15:44 that's just on the edge of uh of our
    15:47 capabilities so yeah I may not want this
    15:51 Mortal body uh five you know not five
    15:55 you know 50 years from now I may want a
    15:58 upgraded body but the idea of being able
    16:01 to see my grandchildren my
    16:03 great-grandchildren to go to the moon go
    16:05 to Mars to see what happens next
    16:09 um is extraordinary I don't you know Ray
    16:13 Carswell talks about the singularity
    16:15 right the point at which the speed of
    16:17 technological change is so rapid that
    16:20 we're unable to predict what's next and
    16:23 that number is Circa you know the early
    16:26 2040s let's not forget that's 20 years
    16:28 from now I mean it's not like a hundred
    16:31 years it's 20 years from now so uh part
    16:33 of what we're talking about is
    16:35 intercepting the technologies that will
    16:38 give us longevity escape velocity but
    16:40 beyond that the technologies that will
    16:42 allow us
    16:43 to connect our minds to the cloud maybe
    16:46 it's uploading ourselves
    16:49 um I'm not a huge fan of freezing myself
    16:51 are you David
    16:53 um yeah so I I definitely want to get
    16:56 immortality or at least extreme
    16:58 longevity is that a reason like an
    17:01 awesome powers freezing yourself thing
    17:02 yeah I know sure there's a lot of people
    17:04 here yeah cryonics is the technology
    17:07 it's the notion that if I freeze myself
    17:09 and I don't rupture the cells and there
    17:11 are ways to do that that hopefully
    17:13 technology super advanced technology you
    17:16 know a hundred or a thousand years from
    17:18 now will be able to bring me back and
    17:19 restate my neural structures and my
    17:21 memories and so forth but that's that's
    17:24 a subject for another conversation hold
    17:25 on I have a question on this David uh
    17:27 have you ever visited or Peter VA has
    17:30 ever this is a very interesting question
    17:31 visited a facility where people are
    17:34 Frozen I mean is this a I I I thought
    17:36 that this was all hearsay uh I have not
    17:39 uh either have I but there are a number
    17:41 of them and people I mean the first
    17:45 person I just saw an article about this
    17:46 the first person Frozen
    17:48 uh was about 50 years ago and there are
    17:52 companies today that you'll wear a
    17:55 bracelet and
    17:57 um at the moment of death uh when your
    18:00 body when your your brain function
    18:02 ceases they will come in and they'll
    18:05 pull out your blood replace it with
    18:07 effectively an antifreeze and uh and
    18:09 freeze you and you can have the choice
    18:11 of freezing your entire body or coughing
    18:14 off your head and just freezing your
    18:15 head because it takes less energy to do
    18:17 that it may actually work
    18:20 um I didn't think it would but actually
    18:22 given that we can now reset the age of
    18:24 cells I can imagine that you can quickly
    18:27 unfreeze a person and get their cells to
    18:30 begin the Rejuvenation process that we
    18:33 seem to be able to control now
    18:34 and uh yeah so I think it I wouldn't do
    18:37 it myself at least currently uh but I
    18:40 think that it's not as crazy as it once
    18:42 seemed
    18:44 um but I I would rather stay alive by
    18:46 being alive and I think the Technologies
    18:49 to do that are increasingly here it's
    18:52 it's a it's a fun subject to think about
    18:54 but I'd rather put my energy and focus
    18:56 into extending the healthy human
    18:58 lifespan you know what Peter and I are
    19:00 very much into democratizing
    19:02 Technologies and and cryonics is not
    19:05 going to be for everybody it's a very
    19:07 small few people number of people that
    19:09 can afford this so that's again not a
    19:11 good reason to focus our energies on
    19:13 those kind of Technologies I have a lot

    How Are David & Peter Going To Reduce Aging?

    19:16 of deep appreciation for that answer I
    19:18 have a great one I want to end it with
    19:19 but uh Peter this one was directed at
    19:22 you uh somebody wanted an update on I
    19:24 didn't even know this was public yet the
    19:26 age reversal prize and I'm not sure if
    19:28 David you know about the age reversal
    19:30 experts here has but obviously and let
    19:32 me just cue this up for everybody
    19:33 listening David efforts are
    19:35 substantially documented realized and
    19:38 and very public right now he he's in my
    19:40 opinion the leading World expert on on
    19:42 anti-aging at the moment and um you know
    19:45 Peter I think that you're now going to
    19:46 actively join this fight through one of
    19:48 your efforts
    19:49 um do you want to share how uh yeah sure
    19:51 and David is is very much involved uh he
    19:55 and George Church are uh are my
    19:58 co-conspirators uh if I would our
    20:00 scientific co-chairs of a 101 million
    20:04 dollar age reversal X prize uh and the
    20:08 question we've asked I mean we've been
    20:10 talking about the idea is could we do
    20:12 and it's not launched yet to be very
    20:14 clear we're majority funded uh David and
    20:17 I have been having a conversation every
    20:19 uh every few days on the rule sets and
    20:22 getting them really honed in I hope to
    20:25 launch an early part of 2023 but uh we
    20:29 talked early on about a longevity prize
    20:31 but the problem with the longevity prize
    20:33 like can you add 30 healthy years and
    20:34 person's life which we will is you have
    20:38 to wait 30 years to see if you have a
    20:39 winner but can you in fact reverse aging
    20:43 in someone in this case the rules we're
    20:45 thinking about is can you give a
    20:48 therapeutic that lasts for less than a
    20:50 year but reverses biological age by 20
    20:55 years or more David do you want to add
    20:58 your thoughts there yeah it the goal is
    21:01 to inspire companies and Labs
    21:05 individuals to work on methods to safely
    21:07 reverse aging in multiple tissues and
    21:10 organs to rejuvenate the body and make
    21:12 it function better and uh and this kind
    21:15 of prize money will be a huge incentive
    21:18 um I think it's gonna have a big impact
    21:19 on on the field and uh and drive
    21:23 innovation in the same way other X
    21:25 prizes have done so and so I'm super
    21:27 happy to be involved we're looking at
    21:29 you know we're trying to decide where
    21:31 what the focus will be I I you know Dave
    21:34 and I are honing in on on cognition on
    21:37 muscle on skin on immune system I mean
    21:40 these are the things that as you age you
    21:42 want to look good you want to move well
    21:43 you want to think clearly you want to
    21:45 have able to have a good immunity in a
    21:47 world of covet and influenza
    21:50 um
    21:51 but you know this is about getting the
    21:54 smartest people on the planet to focus
    21:55 on one of the biggest problems one of
    21:58 the biggest Grand challenges on the
    22:00 planet which is extending the healthy
    22:02 Health span and David on a previous
    22:05 episode you mentioned the economic
    22:08 impact for adding one healthy year on a
    22:11 person's life what was that number again
    22:12 it was staggering well for the us alone
    22:14 it's 86 trillion dollars in the long run
    22:17 of doing that so so David uh where

    Where Can You Get To Know More About David Sinclair?

    22:20 should people go to find you
    22:22 well I'm I'm active on social media
    22:25 um so find updated news there
    22:28 uh my podcast is still available and I'm
    22:31 working on season two uh and that's on
    22:34 all podcast Outlets uh my book I think a
    22:38 lot of people got inspired by
    22:40 um and I was inspired by yours too Peter
    22:43 my book is called lifespan why we age
    22:45 and why we don't have to and I didn't
    22:48 get to talk a lot about what I do on my
    22:50 in my daily life which supplements and
    22:52 that kind of thing but that is outlined
    22:54 in large part on page 304 of lifespan so
    22:59 check that out that's the cheat sheet
    23:01 but please do read the science as well
    23:02 and all of the future that's coming so
    23:06 that's where to find me um that is a
    23:08 good spot other than that
    23:10 um I'll be I'm working on it on a TV
    23:13 show that uh I'll let you know how that
    23:17 goes
    23:18 show people the insides of our bodies
    23:21 and how we work and how to improve our
    23:23 bodies in our daily lives in a way that
    23:26 no show has ever done before so stay
    23:29 tuned for that too Nick do you have a
    23:30 last question for us I do and I'm going

    The Human Side Of David Sinclair.

    23:32 to direct it at David and then Peter
    23:33 will have you recorded on this too David
    23:36 the the question that came in I thought
    23:38 it was novel is uh are you happy if so
    23:40 why and was there ever a point in your
    23:42 life in which you weren't and what did
    23:44 you do because uh I like this because a
    23:47 lot of your research is pending on this
    23:49 fulcrum of whether or not people can
    23:51 resolve that okay uh am I always happy
    23:54 uh no uh most days I'm happy because I'm
    23:58 doing something that I dreamed of doing
    24:00 and I'm fulfilled but I have down days I
    24:03 have days where I get attacked by Lodge
    24:07 farmer by colleagues I've learned to
    24:10 have a thicker skin so I don't get
    24:12 full-blown depression but it's still
    24:14 it's still upsetting but I've learned to
    24:16 trust in myself and be resilient and get
    24:19 up um I find that having teenage kids is
    24:22 the most challenging thing in life and I
    24:25 have three of those and I'm still trying
    24:27 to be a great dad uh so I'm a struggling
    24:30 vegan and a struggling teenage guy
    24:33 so that that's who I am outside of
    24:36 research David thanks for being on the

    25:19 Outro

    24:38 show
    24:39 um let us know what you think great
    24:40 review and give us a follow find David
    24:42 across all socials he's very active and
    24:45 I think
    24:46 um we're just really blessed to have had
    24:47 him Peter do you want to share any
    24:49 closing notes David it's a truly a
    24:52 pleasure to call you a friend a
    24:53 co-collaborator co-conspirator on this
    24:56 journey we're ahead of uh and have a
    24:59 beautiful day pal yeah you too it's
    25:01 great to have you as a co-pilot on on
    25:03 this final frontier of biology
    25:05 appreciate it yeah appreciate you too
    25:07 take care
    25:10 [Music]